Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: I just think we've got to give up. The whole idea of housing as commodity is the thing that I think that's when I decided I didn't want to. I wanted to be a conscientious objector to being in the housing as a commodity way of thinking. I don't, you know, everybody should be able to get a home in a place like Australia, whether that means owning it or living in a safe, affordable home near where their community and their work is.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Welcome to Unhoused Voices from the Threshold, a podcast about housing and homelessness in the Bega Valley, New South Wales.
The makers of this podcast would like to acknowledge and pay respect to the traditional custodians of the lands, waterways and sky country across the Bega Valley shire.
Welcome to Unhoused, our podcast where we explore the changing face of homelessness in the Bega Valley, the levels of awareness in the community, and the kinds of assistance available to those experiencing difficulties with housing. In later episodes, we will also explore some of the housing strategies that are on the table and those being implemented for our community.
My name is Lisa and I'll be your guide throughout this podcast series.
Throughout the series, you will hear reference to many acronyms and support services.
We will list all of these in the show notes each episode and encourage listeners who are struggling with issues around housing, mental health or safety to reach out. There are people there to help you.
As in each episode, we've been out in the community canvassing opinions and awareness.
Are you aware that there is homelessness in the Bega Valley?
[00:02:01] Speaker C: Yes, definitely. Have been aware of it for a long time.
[00:02:04] Speaker B: Have you?
How come you know this?
[00:02:07] Speaker C: Because we're with the Lions Club.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: Oh, right.
[00:02:10] Speaker C: And we're aware of what's happening in our community because we are always helping them and we became very aware around the time of the bushfires.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: Yes, of course.
[00:02:19] Speaker C: More so.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay.
Do you think you can always tell if someone's homeless?
[00:02:24] Speaker C: No, definitely can't.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: What do you think could be done to alleviate the situation?
[00:02:30] Speaker C: Well, first of all, more awareness and more funding.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Are you aware of any homelessness in the Bega Valley?
[00:02:38] Speaker D: I have seen one or two that I believe are homeless getting around.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: And how can you tell a homeless person?
[00:02:45] Speaker D: He had no shoes on this one and I felt really bad. I actually took him to KFC and bought him something to eat, but I could tell he was definitely not living well. He was carrying a big bag and. Yep.
[00:02:56] Speaker B: Okay. Was that a young person?
[00:02:58] Speaker D: No, he was well and truly in his 60s. I felt really sad about it because I was like, people should not be on the streets at that age, especially.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: In this area, coming into winter as well. Yeah.
Are you aware of homelessness in the Bega Valley?
[00:03:13] Speaker E: Yes, very.
I'm aware that there are a lot of people who try to help out, but the task seems to be getting harder and harder and more overwhelming.
As I say, it can be somebody who's got mental problems or hard times or not necessarily people who are miscreants or down and out can be for a big variety of reasons.
[00:03:39] Speaker B: And what do you think could or should be done to help alleviate the issue in the Bega Valley?
[00:03:46] Speaker E: My God, it's such a big task.
I think it seems to be that there's that much red tape and that's holding up, building more houses and providing accommodation.
Maybe we should just be content to relax some things and make it a bit easier.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: Welcome to episode two of Voices from the Threshold.
When we think about the changing face of homelessness and housing, we have to take into account the growing number of people who choose a nomadic life as opposed to being committed to a lifetime of working to pay off a mortgage or to pay increasing rents as housing becomes less and less affordable. Many are choosing a life on the road. We're all familiar with the term grey nomad, but the members of this group usually have a home base as security.
Homelessness Services report that over 5,000 homeless Australians were living in their cars in 2023, many of whom would be moving around regularly.
And then there are the nomads, solo travellers, van lifers. There's a fairly even split between men and women. 40% are female, with around 32% found predominantly in New South Wales.
They earn money as can and many have children living with them.
It may sound romantic, but is this really a free choice?
Is the choice due to a desire for adventure or is it driven by the cost of living and rising cost of housing?
Is it right that we have to choose between working long hours in order to afford a home and living life to the fullest?
In this episode you will meet Jude, a 60 year old woman who lives in her van, travelling throughout Eastern Australia, often volunteering for organisations like BlazeAid, which is how Jude came to know and love the Bega Valley.
Many people are forced to live in their vans on the road and find things quite difficult.
Jude is not wealthy, but she is incredibly resourceful and she sees her life on wheels, as she calls it, as freedom.
How long have you been in The Bega Valley?
[00:06:24] Speaker A: Five years.
I packed up my life up north in 2020, my kids were all off at uni and somewhat settled. I sold everything, gave up my job of 16 to travel the world in 2020.
So when I realized when the borders shut a week before I was supposed to fly to Paris, I thought, ah, I have no home, no job and I've sold all my possessions. But I still had a car and I had watched the fires progress across Australia and I was in land management as a, as my profession and environmental rehabilitation. So I particularly followed the fires and Cobargo struck a chord with me. So I thought, yeah, I'm going to go to cobargo and help in bushfire recovery. So I came down here and joined BlazeAid who build fences for disaster affected communities. Came for two weeks, stayed for two years and fell in love with the place. Yeah, I spen the first four months I was here camped in a corflute standing tent on Cobargo sports ground which was more comfortable than it sounds. They're called swift shelters. I used to say it's basically like living in a giant real estate sign. I could stand up in it and had electricity and a light and blaze aide had procured over time, you know, single beds or stretchers and we had heaters and that was perfectly comfortable. So when I was there there was probably 20 of them occupied and there was someone living in a bus and someone various caravans and things around. So yeah, it was the best thing I ever did.
I then went on to coordinate the camp for five months at which point I thought the camp was going to end. But we kept getting extensions because there was so much work to do.
But after five months I needed a break. So I went handed over the coordinator's reins and went wandering to see family a bit. But I realized then I wanted to go back and finish what we'd started in Cobargo. But also I think it was then that I really thought I don't want to settle again. I don't want to settle into a house.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: Where did you sleep last night?
[00:09:15] Speaker A: Well, I slept in a bed in a house that I'm house sitting for a month while the owner's away. I'm looking after her home and her dog.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Otherwise. You normally live in your van?
[00:09:30] Speaker A: Old van.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: Yes, old van.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Old van.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: The old van has everything you need.
[00:09:37] Speaker A: Yeah, most of the time. Yeah, yeah, it's good. Quite comfortable.
I just have to hope that it stays on the road. Yeah, yeah. She's a lovely old thing and she hasn't let me down too often. But I bought on the cheaper end To.
Well, one that I. I'm not very fancy, but also I wanted to just ask, be sure that I really wanted to live in a van. I mean, I've been without home for four years, but I've managed that by house sitting, staying with family, staying with friends, camping, living on Blaze Aid camps.
But I've not had my own mobile accommodation and so I wanted to be sure that I was comfortable with that. So rather than invest a whole lot of money, I bought cheap.
[00:10:31] Speaker B: Cheap little van.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: That's seeing you through while you make sure.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: While I figure out what's the right term. Yeah.
[00:10:38] Speaker B: When you are living in your van, what does that look like? Are you parked somewhere? Are you camping?
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Mixture of everything.
A lot of people in the community, some that I met when I was volunteering here, but also just random people that I might talk to and we make a connection, have offered their property for me to camp up at it and park it, park my van at. I've never taken anyone up on it yet, but I might. The offers are there even.
I meet a lot of women who travel in their van. They might have a home base here because I'm working in Narooma. I meet also people in Yoruba, Dallas, Shire, who women, single women, travel in a van but have a home. And when they know that I'm living in my van, they'll say if I ever feel afraid, I'm welcome to come and park in their driveway, just turn up in the night. I guess they know that you always have that bit of fear which you just have to suck it up and go on or what do you do? What's the alternative? There's definitely fear sometimes, but other times. So free camping, unfortunately, it's not very possible and it's frowned upon in most places, certainly places on the coast.
[00:12:15] Speaker B: There are a lot of national parks and things you can probably scoot into.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: And unfortunately they're not very.
Look, they're more affordable than renting a house, but since they brought in a booking and payments system over Covid, I think it's made it more difficult just to.
Just to pull into a national park.
Look, I have some spots where I feel safe free camping. And I try to. I never leave any trace, you know, Unfortunately, a lot of free campers ruin it for the rest of us who.
This is our life by, you know, not respecting places that people hold dear, you know, and not even. I don't even mean with rubbish. It's more like, you know, setting it up as if it is their home and overstaying their welcome and you just, you learn to be.
Occupy a small space and be quite humble and which I quite like.
Yeah, I think it brings out the best in. Well, me.
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: I was going to ask you if you think you've missed out on anything by living.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Oh this way but yeah, I know.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: The answer to what you just said.
No, it sounds like it's actually been quite expansive.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: Liberating. It's liberating. Look, I've stayed in some lovely homes, I've looked after some lovely homes for people.
I've packed up family members, homes who have passed in recent years.
So much stuff, so much. I've been in so many conversations about real estate and housing affordability or just even stuff and I just think thank God I'm not part of that. I feel like I've jumped off the treadmill and. And it's liberating. I love it.
My marriage ended about 20 years ago.
Coming up to 20 years ago and I had two boys at primary school and I thought I was working part time for a community organisation. I, I could have stepped that up to full time. I could have followed a professional career, I could have looked for more work but I thought I wanted to be available as a mum and I knew that for me I know plenty of other amazing women make it work but for me I couldn't make full time career driven work and being an available mum I knew something would suffer and probably everyone would suffer, the kids and me and whatever my job was. So I kept up the part time work and raised two fabulous young men and had time for them which was really important to me.
We didn't have much, we always rented up the north coast.
I didn't have any. My eyes set on any great income earning career so I always knew that we wouldn't have a lot of money. We just learned to live with it in our means.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: Do you reckon you'd be able to afford that?
[00:15:50] Speaker A: No, no, certainly wouldn't be able to. I mean you'd have to work full time I guess. Definitely have to work full time.
I mean there was some government support with family tax benefit when the boys were younger but no, I mean to be honest we could barely afford it then that stuff and home houses aren't everything.
We still had a home and I still have a home. It's just a home on wheels or I think it and it taught them there's other ways to live.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: You mentioned that being up in particular you mentioned around the A bedallan. You've met other women who are nomadic.
Yeah. Is that, Is that something that you. Was that surprising to you? And are there a lot of women living like you?
[00:16:45] Speaker A: I think there's a lot. I belong to a couple of Facebook groups which are women living solo and.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: Living solo on the road.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: On the road, sorry, yeah, yeah, it's a thing and it's that freedom thing. It's like someone saying something like they said it quite poetically and I thought, oh, that's it, that's the feeling. But it was like releasing the shackles. I'm going, I've got no one depending on me anymore.
Or if they are there, you know, reasonably set up the themselves. And it's just liberating.
I mean some people are being liberated from really poor socio economic situations or domestic violence or. So it's not all. It's not all.
[00:17:38] Speaker B: It's not by choice.
[00:17:39] Speaker A: No, it's.
But then the film Nomadland, Frances McDormand, she.
Some of that I think was really poignant because although like for me it's a choice, a lot of the women, certainly women in these Facebook groups are also on the road with kids full time.
There's one blogger who I don't read many blogs but I read the headlines.
She's on the road with three kids for two years now homeschooling and she may have been escaping a domestic violence situation.
But yeah, people, I think people have just found there's different ways to live. That isn't all about getting a mortgage and I mean the fact that we sell that as the great Australian dream just drives me crazy.
Yeah, I've spent a lot of time in Bermagui house sitting, staying with friends since.
Well in the last three years particularly. And I'm shocked when I walk around at night sometimes and there's no signs of life in whole streets.
There's no lights on, there's no. The rubbish bins are in the same place week after week. And I think it's obvious that, that there's whole streets where people don't live day to day. And I mean I love this area. I will always come back here. I'm not really ready to put down routes anywhere but I mean it wouldn't be possible here for me anyway. I could never afford to buy and well even to rent.
I could never get a mortgage at my age and you know, I've had no dependable income for five years. I just work as I need to. But answers? I don't know, I just think we've got to give up the whole idea of Housing as commodity is the thing that I think that's when I decided I didn't want it. I wanted to be a conscientious objector to being in the housing as a commodity way of thinking. I don't, you know, everybody should be able to get a home in a place like Australia. Whether that means owning it or living in a safe, affordable home near where their community and their work is. I don't unfortunately have any answers except it needs a whole reset of how we think about it.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Given that you're on the road, you're living on the road, you're living nomadic life and there appears to be a bit more of that going on.
What are the kinds of places or spaces that could be created in towns or in Australia that might be really helpful for people who choose to or need to live like that?
[00:20:47] Speaker A: Well, free camping spots, whether that's car parks, where people are able to camp overnight safely and without the. I've never mostly not felt unsafe, but I have felt that I might be bothered by someone knocking on my window and saying, you can't camp here.
Discreet as I try to be, I have. And so you're always sort of hyper aware.
But inland areas, you know, the coast is under a lot of population pressure and particularly at holiday times.
And I know caravan parks, you know, I've read nasty things on the local Facebook page from people saying about time we got rid of all these freeloaders. Free camping in town. There's caravan parks. They could. Yeah, there is a bit of lack of understand on people.
Yeah, maybe they're talking, maybe they're not talking about, you know, there's the idea that we're all backpackers just around camping in our vans up on the beaches and leaving all our Maccas wrappers behind. Well, we're not. We're looking for a safe place to pull in and sleep the night and then not be there in the day, annoying people. Lots of places out west and up through. I traveled up through central Queensland last year. There were towns where away from the coast where they provided that and overnight came and there would be a sign up saying the only one I know of locally is the first free camp that's provided is Badalla rest area provided by state forests of New South Wales. I think the limit there is three nights. So some people might base themselves there and go out during the day. I have overnighted there. There's, you know, public toilets and I think there's fireplaces. There could be a lot more of that. I understand that, you know, people Abuse the system. But I don't know why we always have to limit things because the lowest common denominator like we, from what I saw in places I stayed in Queensland and I am relatively new to this living on the road thing.
People respected it and people looked out for each other and you know, sometimes it was like being in a big parking lot where you're all parked beside each other. But if you just want a space to stay for the night, usually there's public toilets nearby if you need them.
Then I think that's a win win. And people go and spend money in the town or, you know, rather than driving through, they'll stay an extra day and see what the area has to offer.
I guess we don't have that problem on the south coast because people are coming and staying because it's so beautiful, so beautiful. But I think they have to.
[00:24:13] Speaker B: But for instance, you, in your case with BlazeAid, you came down and gave to the community. So, you know, and a lot of people traveling I'd imagine would be of a like mind.
[00:24:23] Speaker A: That's right. Well, central Queensland, which as I said already is quite friendly to nomads. They're going to be hosting lots of nomads in central and western Queensland as the floods recede and recovery efforts take place there. So they'll be begging people to come back freely and a lot of those people will see a need and probably join a blaze aid camp because they'll be probably half a dozen Blaze aid camps up there.
I think we've got to reframe how we think about people who are renters. I mean, the number of conversations when I lived up the north coast amongst my friends who would be starting to make disparaging comments about, oh, renters. Oh yeah, they're just that street's full of renters. And I'd say, excuse me guys, I'm a renter, lifetime renter.
Oh yeah, but not you. I get. Yeah, but I'm a renter by choice and well, in the end, by necessity. Yeah, same with people without homes. You know, we're not all freeloaders cashed up with all our toys, driving around the country.
We're not all people who will trash a campsite, who, you know, there's the full spectrum of human experience. But we have people living on the road, living as nomads. Also have a.
I think they've got a responsibility, but it's the same responsibility I'd have no matter where I was. Living in any sort of a community is to leave it better than you Found it. And you know, not. Not negatively impact anyone else's life. And unfortunately, but unfortunately for some people, looking out and seeing a van parked in a car park by the beach already negatively impacts their life.
Because.
Because that's their view or what? Their view? Well, yes, their view. And I think maybe some of its jealousy is. Well, you know, they're free. I'm not exactly pay my mortgage. I'm sitting in this multi million dollar house looking out and all I can see is that white Toyota over there sitting out having a beer without a care in the world, enjoying the view, you know, I had to get her moved on. Yeah, it's not fair. There is absolutely that feeling. And I've spoken spent a couple of nights a week for the last six months when I'm not house sitting, camped up at the beach at Narooma.
I just pull into a car park and the next morning when I get up, all the morning swimmers and cyclists and coffee people are already there.
And at first they. At first. And there was also the odd random motorhome or. And other, other people parked up. Some nights I was there by myself, other nights there might be half a dozen of us.
And I did as I, you know, got out to go for a swim before work.
I'd sometimes see people, you know, looking a bit askance at me like, oh, she's back thinking that I was, you know, gonna become a fixture there. Some homeless, random homeless person. So I just say, start chatting and say, oh, I just happen to swim before work and.
Oh, you work? Yeah, I just work around the corner and oh, but only a couple of days a week. Usually I'm in Bermagui, but I like to come up and spend a couple of days in Narooma. And I went to the movies last night and I get chatting and then they think, oh, you're just a regular person. And so then these people ended up, you know, greeting me of oh, you back? You working today or have you got time for a coffee? And some of those people were also people who offered me their driveways or a hot shower or use their washing machine if I ever needed.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: So yeah, and you just mentioned a hot shower and a washing machine.
[00:28:44] Speaker A: I've got a network down here when I'm in other places.
Swimming pools are a great. You can. I mean, I like to swim anyway for some people join gyms. I haven't got around to that yet. You know, there's some gyms that are statewide or. And with a membership you can go and you know, maybe you do a Workout and then you have a hot shower. I haven't done that, but I have been in.
When I've been in towns where maybe. And I haven't. I swim a lot. I love to swim in the ocean. A cold shower often does the job when it's not winter. But otherwise I'll pay to go to a swimming pool and have a swim and then I have a hot shower. Laundromat. Yeah, they could be better.
Some of them are pretty gross.
But I traveled before coming back down this way. I spent a year traveling in Europe and just on the cheap. But every town of any size over there has amazing big because they have a different way of life than us, where they don't all live in mansions.
A lot of people go to laundromats in. And they were immaculately kept and well serviced and very affordable.
We're a bit behind in that.
But most. I would say most towns have some sort of laundry facility.
Hot showers. Yeah, are a bit. I haven't yet had to ask at a caravan park or a hotel or something if I could do that. But, you know, having that facility would be good, even for a small fee.
You know, don't expect everything to be free.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: Given that you have met other women who are nomad. I mean, are there many men doing.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: I'd say lots.
[00:30:41] Speaker B: But given that you've tapped into some Facebook groups that are for women. Yeah, yeah. Is there such a place as a place where women can go and park up and maybe hang out together?
[00:30:52] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, women set up on these Facebook groups. You know, women will. Might say they're going to be in a certain area or is there anyone else there? Or some people plan camps. I'm not very good at planned things. I'm sort of more of a wing and a prayer.
[00:31:17] Speaker B: So being a nomad, you can still be very connected to community.
Yes, you manage to do that. And there is a. Obviously a nomad nomadic community.
[00:31:28] Speaker A: There is.
I know it's not liberating for everybody. Some people are forced into a nomadic life or living in, you know, less than a home. So I don't want to say that it's all fabulous. And there are days I've had two things go wrong with my van at once. And my van was in the shop and I was feeling a bit low anyway. I don't know, something.
I don't know. The stars weren't aligned and I was feeling very glum about.
Well, just about everything really. And that's when you start thinking, oh, maybe I wish I did have A house but, but I don't. I think I probably would have had those feelings anyway and you know, so, so there's definitely down times.
If you've got good community around you, I think it's a.
Or if you can make good community and good connections and doing a bit of work or a bit of volunteering really helps with that, getting involved, which is definitely a path I take. Yeah. I did rent for a long time with my kids. The only time I've ever owned a home was when I was married and we owned a small home in New Zealand which we sold to move back to Australia.
When my marriage ended and I was a single parent, I knew that to buy a home was going to require me to increase my income substantially, which would mean full time work, getting a more substantial job, I suppose. And I just didn't want to sacrifice the time I could devote as a mum to my two boys to paying a mortgage. It wasn't that important to me. And at that time rent was somewhat affordable even for a single mother working part time.
But yeah, I just didn't want to buy into the whole working to pay a mortgage and not living. I, I couldn't see that people had much of a life who were just spending. It makes me sad to think that, and maybe for my kids that if they are going to, you know, get a mortgage, which sounds like a prize but to me it's actually more like a millstone around your neck. If they're ever going to get that, then I just see endless work to, you know, it's all to be able to pay it off.
[00:34:01] Speaker B: Treadmill, as you mentioned earlier.
[00:34:01] Speaker A: A treadmill? Yeah, just a treadmill.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: I mean you're 60, so what is life going to look like for you in 10 years?
[00:34:09] Speaker A: Well, when I was in Cobargo we had a woman come to volunteer at the Blaze aid camp who said she couldn't go out on the fences but she'd help around the camp.
And for some reason I think we had a lockdown or something. It was Covid and we couldn't, she couldn't stay. But then I ran into her at the pub some time later and I found out she was 85, had escaped a retirement village eight years before when she said this isn't alive. Escaped.
Her family had put her in there, she was in good health. But she said, I'm not doing this. She bought a van and was driving, just. She was a nomad and she was there at the pub reading a book, eating her dinner and had to come into town because she had to pass her driving test the next day or do a medical for her driving test. And I said to her, what if you don't pass? And she said it's not an option. I gotta drive.
Driving and living in my van is my life. I didn't know she was 85. I would have thought she was maybe 70 and I thought she's inspiring.
I don't say that I will that I will never settle depends on opportunities. But at the moment I'm just enjoying.
I've been in the in the Bega Valley this time round for eight months and I must say I'm getting itchy feet. And for that feeling of getting in the van and driving north, well, I.
[00:35:53] Speaker B: Wanted to say thank you for talking to me today.
[00:35:57] Speaker A: No worries.
[00:36:04] Speaker B: Thanks to Jude for sharing her experience with this podcast and she mentioned the recent Central Queensland flood recovery effort. However, in the meantime, in may more than 500 properties across the Mid north coastal flood areas of New South Wales have been declared uninhabitable, a figure probably closer to 800.
And an estimated 10,000 properties are damaged, meaning potentially thousands of people being displaced.
I checked in with Jude recently and she said the cleanup of homes after floods is totally heart wrenching. Whereas bushfire can vaporise a home and all its contents. Horrendous in itself, floodwaters create a horrific mess where people are left sifting through mud and rubbish. Often other people's looking for parts of their lives to save. But she said it is inevitable she will make her way to the recovery camps there at some stage.
In the next episode we meet two older men who have faced eviction and hardship with housing in the Bega Valley. We hope to have you along with us then.
Voices from the Thresholds has been produced by the Bega Valley Shire Library Service and Sapphire stories made with funds gained through a New South Wales Premier's Department's Social Cohesion grant as obtained by the Bega Valley Shire Council.
